Fair Wear n Tear..... How do you define it ?

[Arfur Dealy 630]

We should all know our responsibilities as retailers under the CRA. As you know wear n tear is excluded, but how do you define it ? 

[Nick M.K. 382]

A part or component or consumable which is not new but still does it’s intended job safely enough even though it may be near the end of it’s life. 

Dirty but usable air filter

2.5mm tyre thread depth

exhaust with surface corossion but not punctured

3mm left on brake pads

disc lipping almost to minimum disc thickness

crackling from radio speakers

etc etc

 

 

 

[Blenheim Car Sales 27]

quite subjective and would differ between a  buyers and a sellers expectations

[Nick M.K. 382]

Absolutely. Buyer would expect as new. Seller would expect as is :-) 

[trade vet 347]

It is always our fault,punters generally do not understand fair wear and tear.Betterment is another one.My brother in law for instance brought his A6 back complaining about the quality of the tyres we fitted which were scrubbed off very quickly.It was pointed out that the tracking was way out as he had hit a curb or something but no the message coming back later was that our tyres  were sub standard .

[NOACROSS 257]

1 hour ago, trade vet said:

It is always our fault,punters generally do not understand fair wear and tear.Betterment is another one.My brother in law for instance brought his A6 back complaining about the quality of the tyres we fitted which were scrubbed off very quickly.It was pointed out that the tracking was way out as he had hit a curb or something but no the message coming back later was that our tyres  were sub standard .

Ugh. Friends and family. Nightmare. 

I’m sure you avoid that sort of business too where possible. 

I’ve rarely got anything they’ve looking for or, if the see I have I say ‘it owes me wrong or aren’t  you’re better off buying a new one?’. 

I think I’ve said before, but I have one friend who is brilliant, and just tells me how much he has to spend and it’s up to me what he gets. 

I still sell to neighbours occasionally. Dunno why. Must like the aggro,  it so far, so good on the whole. 

[Blenheim Car Sales 27]

someone coming out of a 51 plate punto would expect is £3000 10 plate focus to be like new .......................eeerrrrrrrr no no and NO again

[boring dave 358]

put your shoes on as if you were the customer

define your line if you came to yourself and either

reject

repair

make offer under betterment to fix

keep to those parameters or you will end up being bent over

[Dave2302 207]

3 hours ago, Arfur Dealy said:

how do you define it ? 

That is the problem with Red Tape CRA , a fair idea in principle written by a tosser with absolutely no technical knowledge, like many things in UK life.

A 100,000 mile Car that uses a bit of Oil, well it's not a new Car, so what ? As long as it passes an Emission Test, but any one without technical knowledge of a Car, (= most folks), would probably find it unacceptable .................

pfffffffffffff ..................... I dunno

[EPV 512]

I think the answer is that none of us define it. A judge does! 

[tradex 438]

42 minutes ago, EPV said:

I think the answer is that none of us define it. A judge does! 

and depends on his or her mood and the cost of the Merc S classe's last service

[ExCouncilJobsworth 25]

My view on condition and fair wear and tear is simple:

Cars are like babies. 2 healthy babies born over the years they both live different lives. One eats junk and is lazy another is lean and clean. 

They both can have mechanical breakdowns (broken arms etc) due to carelessness or through accidental damage. 

Certain parts in cars arent serviceable and conditions can depend on this e.g. a clutch isnt serviceable. Some people use it too much some people use it little as often and this could be gentle or hard. 

Like some have said its open to debate and the debate depends on the chairperson (judge). 

A judge could say "if Audi only provide a 3 year warranty on the entire vehicle and this includes this gearbox, the vehicle has had a 60,000 mile wear and tear, which i have to take into consideration. If the manufacturer who produced the vehicle and assembled all components together for the end product only provides a 3 year warranty and the vehicle is now 6 years old i am under no obligation to insist the retailer, Mr Mike Brewer, should provide a warranty to reflect the warranty of major components for any longer than the statutory period Mr Brewer is required to. A warranty of x months was provided however the vehicle was operational for x months and has been driven for 8000 miles by the customer. The case is dismissed"

 

[trade vet 347]

6 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

My view on condition and fair wear and tear is simple:

Cars are like babies. 2 healthy babies born over the years they both live different lives. One eats junk and is lazy another is lean and clean. 

They both can have mechanical breakdowns (broken arms etc) due to carelessness or through accidental damage. 

Certain parts in cars arent serviceable and conditions can depend on this e.g. a clutch isnt serviceable. Some people use it too much some people use it little as often and this could be gentle or hard. 

Like some have said its open to debate and the debate depends on the chairperson (judge). 

A judge could say "if Audi only provide a 3 year warranty on the entire vehicle and this includes this gearbox, the vehicle has had a 60,000 mile wear and tear, which i have to take into consideration. If the manufacturer who produced the vehicle and assembled all components together for the end product only provides a 3 year warranty and the vehicle is now 6 years old i am under no obligation to insist the retailer, Mr Mike Brewer, should provide a warranty to reflect the warranty of major components for any longer than the statutory period Mr Brewer is required to. A warranty of x months was provided however the vehicle was operational for x months and has been driven for 8000 miles by the customer. The case is dismissed"

 

If only......

[SC Derby 210]

Personally I think this is one of the trickiest questions in our industry

I honestly think a large % of customers think our cars should all be our back to new mechanical standard and parts shouldn’t be worn. 

If a part fails and we offer to fit a second hand one how often do they say ‘I don’t want a second hand part’ - but EVERY part on the car is either used or second hand!

[ExCouncilJobsworth 25]

8 minutes ago, SC Derby said:

Personally I think this is one of the trickiest questions in our industry

I honestly think a large % of customers think our cars should all be our back to new mechanical standard and parts shouldn’t be worn. 

If a part fails and we offer to fit a second hand one how often do they say ‘I don’t want a second hand part’ - but EVERY part on the car is either used or second hand!

In the UK we dont always use English like the Aussies and US counterparts...they say they have the correct version...

At my last council I told an Aussie colleague I may go to uni and be a doctor...or might sell cars...

She replied "you want to be a used car salesmen? USED car salesmen?!"

This occasion, for this topic, the Aussies and Yankees are right. If we call ourselves USED car salesmen AND this was nationalised it will be obvious the cars are used. Otherwise our punters will rearrange the word "used" into "sued" - sued car dealer 

(We are sued car dealers atm) lol

 

[tradex 438]

44 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

My view on condition and fair wear and tear is simple:

Cars are like babies. 2 healthy babies born over the years they both live different lives. One eats junk and is lazy another is lean and clean. 

They both can have mechanical breakdowns (broken arms etc) due to carelessness or through accidental damage. 

Certain parts in cars arent serviceable and conditions can depend on this e.g. a clutch isnt serviceable. Some people use it too much some people use it little as often and this could be gentle or hard. 

Like some have said its open to debate and the debate depends on the chairperson (judge). 

A judge could say "if Audi only provide a 3 year warranty on the entire vehicle and this includes this gearbox, the vehicle has had a 60,000 mile wear and tear, which i have to take into consideration. If the manufacturer who produced the vehicle and assembled all components together for the end product only provides a 3 year warranty and the vehicle is now 6 years old i am under no obligation to insist the retailer, Mr Mike Brewer, should provide a warranty to reflect the warranty of major components for any longer than the statutory period Mr Brewer is required to. A warranty of x months was provided however the vehicle was operational for x months and has been driven for 8000 miles by the customer. The case is dismissed"

 

A clutch is a service item, isn't it?

38 minutes ago, trade vet said:

If only......

snap

[have a word with the wife 126]

Does a car that's 50% cheaper than new mean its 50% worn out ? no it doesn't, does a car that's 50% of original price mean that some of  its components are worn out, no it doesn't ! At 50% of original price the car will have got daily gradual deprecation, this would be acceptable depreciation considered acceptable by a fair thinking person BUT this 50% could be as low as 10% of original selling price, and , if retailing, should still only show gradual daily depreciation , that is why we have such vague laws in retailing used cars, and the last word comes down to a judge what he considers fair wear and tear.

[ExCouncilJobsworth 25]

2 hours ago, tradex said:

A clutch is a service item, isn't it?

snap

Nope it isn't. It's not serviceable. It's replaceable yes but you cannot open it clean it and put it back together helping it to have a long life.

Whereas an engine yes you change filters and oil that help run the engine smoothly and contribute towards its longevity. 

A gearbox is only partially serviceable; yes you can change the gearbox oil but you can't service the synchros that get shagged daily. 

Brakes are fully serviceable. 

Exhausts and driveshafts etc are not. They're all replaceable. 

Certain things are replaceable only. 

I always tell my arsey customers this when they moan about not fsh... The service book particularly the stamped section only talks about fluids and filters  nowhere there is the mention of the heater matrix, clutch, bushes, cv joints etc 

I am a jobsworth i know.... But it helps when you know the nitty gritty

 

[tradex 438]

7 hours ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

Nope it isn't. It's not serviceable. It's replaceable yes but you cannot open it clean it and put it back together helping it to have a long life.

Whereas an engine yes you change filters and oil that help run the engine smoothly and contribute towards its longevity. 

A gearbox is only partially serviceable; yes you can change the gearbox oil but you can't service the synchros that get shagged daily. 

Brakes are fully serviceable. 

Exhausts and driveshafts etc are not. They're all replaceable. 

Certain things are replaceable only. 

I always tell my arsey customers this when they moan about not fsh... The service book particularly the stamped section only talks about fluids and filters  nowhere there is the mention of the heater matrix, clutch, bushes, cv joints etc 

I am a jobsworth i know.... But it helps when you know the nitty gritty

 

Do you understand the term 'service item' 

[Arfur Dealy 630]

I do educate my customers at the point of sale explaining the CRA excludes “wear n tear” is not my responsibility, my responsibility is to ensure the car is described correctly, is safe and fit for purpose at the point of sale. You, Mr Customer have to understand WnT is your responsibility to fix along with service and maintenance.

Depending on the car, I tend to go along the lines that within 30 days I repair regardless as a gesture of goodwill. 

This is why I’m debating whether to use a LG warranty booklet and advertise I offer my own 1 month warranty. I simply can’t make up my mind.... A new a new approach maybe..... 

Edit 

A new year with a new approach maybe....

[tradex 438]

1 hour ago, Arfur Dealy said:

I do educate my customers at the point of sale explaining the CRA excludes “wear n tear” is not my responsibility, my responsibility is to ensure the car is described correctly, is safe and fit for purpose at the point of sale. You, Mr Customer have to understand WnT is your responsibility to fix along with service and maintenance.

Depending on the car, I tend to go along the lines that within 30 days I repair regardless as a gesture of goodwill. 

This is why I’m debating whether to use a LG warranty booklet and advertise I offer my own 1 month warranty. I simply can’t make up my mind.... A new a new approach maybe..... 

Edit 

A new year with a new approach maybe....

The good thing about a 'warranty book' is that is takes a lot (not all!) of the subjective nature of what is and what isn't covered. I sometimes give the booklet to the customer at deposit time to have a think of they want to extend or upgrade, it's up to them.

I always point put that my own car, my wife's car, my step sons cars have warranties on them, I think they are fantastic value, but we are all different.

I use Centurion and they note certain parts are 'wear and tear' items and are NOT covered for the first 30 days, something like a wheel bearing, but an upgrade is available on that.

I'm still firmly in the third party camp, works for me and has done for many years. I've started up again and have just renewed my contract (wrong words but will do) with them.

All my cars go out with a 3 month secure policy, secure. Worth noting that VAG, Daimler, BMW, Land Rover, Aston, and Bugatti (in case you get one in on chop) products often attract a loading on them, but it's all there in black and white and still not a deal breaker.

I'll PM my rates Simon

[Arfur Dealy 630]

31 minutes ago, tradex said:

The good thing about a 'warranty book' is that is takes a lot (not all!) of the subjective nature of what is and what isn't covered. I sometimes give the booklet to the customer at deposit time to have a think of they want to extend or upgrade, it's up to them.

I always point put that my own car, my wife's car, my step sons cars have warranties on them, I think they are fantastic value, but we are all different.

I use Centurion and they note certain parts are 'wear and tear' items and are NOT covered for the first 30 days, something like a wheel bearing, but an upgrade is available on that.

I'm still firmly in the third party camp, works for me and has done for many years. I've started up again and have just renewed my contract (wrong words but will do) with them.

All my cars go out with a 3 month secure policy, secure. Worth noting that VAG, Daimler, BMW, Land Rover, Aston, and Bugatti (in case you get one in on chop) products often attract a loading on them, but it's all there in black and white and still not a deal breaker.

I'll PM my rates Simon

Thanks 

[ExCouncilJobsworth 25]

4 hours ago, tradex said:

Do you understand the term 'service item' 

That's a question you should put forward to manufactures.

As stated, in the service book the vast majority of parts that are REPLACED are not listed in the service book...and i mean the service book that comes with the car from the manufactures. 

Some customers insist a car has not been serviced properly if there is no service book and some moan about main dealer service history. 

As stated above you can have the glory stamps at every 8000 miles but that doesn't and i repeat DOESN'T show the items that receive a battering such as clutch, shockers, links, cv etc have been replaced UNLESS there are additional paper invoices to prove this...

I hope that clarifies it for you 

[tradex 438]

Simon, you have a PM

[Rory RSC 338]

A customer buying a 2008 Golf on 150k miles expects the same aftercare as a customer buying a 2015 Golf on 20k miles. 

Very few customers have mechanical understanding that older cars will not last for ever. CRA has muddied the waters around these sort of issues far more than was ever needed.