Jimbo

Dealing correctly with issues

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2 hours ago, Arfur Dealy said:

MSP, don't get me wrong :) I always try to help my customers if they are polite and reasonable. I don't insist it must be returned if they are miles away unless they are being unreasonable, I just reserve the right to ask them too. The thing is, I prep well and rarely have problems, if a car has an issue within 30 days I just don't invite them to return it to me for repair. If an injector seal decides its going to chuff within 30 days on a 140k 12 years old car, it is clearly wear n tear. 

good luck with that, trading standards will tear you a new one as I'd imagine a magistrate, first 30 days its our responsibilty to fix, If i'd shelled out 5k on a car I'd not expect to be paying anthing within 30 days

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4 minutes ago, andymc1973 said:

good luck with that, trading standards will tear you a new one as I'd imagine a magistrate, first 30 days its our responsibilty to fix, If i'd shelled out 5k on a car I'd not expect to be paying anthing within 30 days

Andy, wear n tear is specifically excluded from the CRA.... 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Andy, wear n tear is specifically excluded from the CRA.... 

 

 

quite prepared to be wrong but surely nearly all faults can be cased as wear and tear, I think you'd struggle if they went legal

2 hours ago, Arfur Dealy said:

MSP, don't get me wrong :) I always try to help my customers if they are polite and reasonable. I don't insist it must be returned if they are miles away unless they are being unreasonable, I just reserve the right to ask them too. The thing is, I prep well and rarely have problems, if a car has an issue within 30 days I just don't invite them to return it to me for repair. If an injector seal decides its going to chuff within 30 days on a 140k 12 years old car, it is clearly wear n tear. 

good luck with that, trading standards will tear you a new one as I'd imagine a magistrate, first 30 days its our responsibilty to fix, If i'd shelled out 5k on a car I'd not expect to be paying anthing within 30 days

 

 

quite prepared to be wrong but surely nearly all faults can be cased as wear and tear, I think you'd struggle if they went legal

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I thought the fault had to have been there at the point of sale and it was down to the buyer to prove this? 

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2 minutes ago, andymc1973 said:

its up to the dealer to prove it wasn't hence the PDI

A PDI will never stop an injector going a week after someone bought the car. But it would have been very obvious if the fault would have been there at the time of sale. So in that case the buyer would not have a case?

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Just now, MrC said:

A PDI will never stop an injector going a week after someone bought the car. But it would have been very obvious if the fault would have been there at the time of sale. So in that case the buyer would not have a case?

Exactly, wear n tear

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If someone went legal on a big problem within a few weeks of purchasing a car then as andymc1973 says, you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on and a judge would find against the retailer, never mind any “wear & tear” bollocks - and selling older mega mileage motors doesn’t absolve retailers of their responsibilities. However this may be overthinking the job & it’ll rarely come down to this hence why you can normally brush off a punter. 

Mind you as for grant8064’s chancer I’d let him blow off some steam then tell him he’s getting nowt. Then the inevitable threats of ‘solicitor/barrister/trading standards’ would spew out of his mouth at which point I’d laugh, tell him to do his best, then bid him farewell & terminate the call.

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7 minutes ago, BHM said:

Mind you as for grant8064’s chancer I’d let him blow off some steam then tell him he’s getting nowt. Then the inevitable threats of ‘solicitor/barrister/trading standards’ would spew out of his mouth at which point I’d laugh, tell him to do his best, then bid him farewell & terminate the call.

We get it once every few months...it's to be expected unfortunately. I used to worry about it but these days just see it as a part of how it's going to be. In not too many words I basically agree 100%.

In more words, when it comes to chancers i'm like a dog with a bone; I keep a timed & dated log of events detailing each and every conversation (if it ever goes to court i'll know when and what was discussed whilst joe bloggs won't remember ranting in Tescos), copies of all emails and any quotes or reports from the moment a complaint is made. Never commit or agree to anything at first, just listen and explain you need to forward the request to the legal team for correct advice before responding (buys a bit of time to calm down and makes a punter realise you're serious and organised). At the first raised voice or threat I simply explain that as professionals we won't deal with aggression or bullying and that any further correspondence must be written in a physical format and that calls and emails will simply not be acknowledged due to poor behaviour. It's normally pretty early on I terminate phone or face to face interaction. 

Shame we have to go through these hoops but for a genuine person I will literally bend over backwards to make sure they're happy, as always there's that 5% ruining it for everyone.

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I’m happy to take the profits and get the good reviews and repeat custom, I’m less happy fix wear n tear issues but that’s the motor trade

fix and move on, simple as that, in my opinion within the first 30 days I’ll fix regardless 

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Used to use Warrantywise, as part of the deal I would put on the 3 or 6 month Silver warranty, I would go through what was and what was not covered at Silver level and offer to upgrade if they wanted to pay.

On the few occasions the buyer had a fault WW would squirm out of the claim using the Wear and Tear get out of jail card but would then tell the buyer to go and see the dealer for a repair!! Talk about pass the book.

This would then have me dealing with an irate customer made even more irate by WW.  "You gave us a warranty blah blah blah and it covers f*** all, blah blah blah"  

In a nutshell I stopped giving warranties and just said they have there consumer rights.In the end I did it totally by the CRA 15 Book. Weirdly I never had an issue after that. Anyway I've not sold a car since god knows when.

I sell my campers without offering a warranty, I'm not shirking my responsibilities. I would simply play by the CRA 15 Rules.  All that said my customer demographic has changed for the better in the last 12 months.  

 

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We had a client in last year about coolant leaking and having to top up, and they were going to get it looked at as also had to top up oil once  

Thankfully it was something minor and we heard no more from them except to thank us for answering their questions so quickly and being on-hand to speak to. 

 

But it got me thinking what kind of bad things it could have been .... worse case im imaging is head gasket on way out?

and then i thought what on earth we’d do if it was something major - especially in a car with sub £500 profit !!

we take great care with the cars and prepare them well so its always horrible to ever hear any negative reports and just always want to deal with them quickly and efficently

 

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Sold a 2010 Avensis 2.0 D4D with 70k miles on the 17 August 2016 with a 3 month warranty, Customer complained after a month that flywheel or clutch were acting up. I was shocked as car was a real gem and drove impeccably. I asked her to take it to HER mechanic as she is 2 hours away. He drove it and reported he couldn't find anything wrong at all and said it must be in her imagination. He drove it again 2 months later, same story.

Next thing I start receiving correspondence from her solicitor, so I send the countries top motor engineer round to investigate. He couldn't find anything wrong either apart from a tiny whine from the release bearing which he said was normal wear and tear and not relevant. Sent his report to her solicitor and offered (as a good will gesture) to supply a 3 piece clutch to her to have fitted at her expense.

That was in October 2017 14 months after purchase. She declined and wanted me to pay to have clutch supplied and fitted by her local Toyota dealer. I declined and then offered to have my mechanic fit it if she dropped the car to me. She declined and wanted a replacement car while her's was with me and also wanted her legal fees paid. So I ignored her solicitors last two letters and now 18 months later I think it may be going to court. Funny thing is I think she will win if it does, even though in my eyes I have done everything I can to sort the situation.

The joys of the motor trade!

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12 minutes ago, Scooby who said:

Sold a 2010 Avensis 2.0 D4D with 70k miles on the 17 August 2016 with a 3 month warranty, Customer complained after a month that flywheel or clutch were acting up. I was shocked as car was a real gem and drove impeccably. I asked her to take it to HER mechanic as she is 2 hours away. He drove it and reported he couldn't find anything wrong at all and said it must be in her imagination. He drove it again 2 months later, same story.

Next thing I start receiving correspondence from her solicitor, so I send the countries top motor engineer round to investigate. He couldn't find anything wrong either apart from a tiny whine from the release bearing which he said was normal wear and tear and not relevant. Sent his report to her solicitor and offered (as a good will gesture) to supply a 3 piece clutch to her to have fitted at her expense.

That was in October 2017 14 months after purchase. She declined and wanted me to pay to have clutch supplied and fitted by her local Toyota dealer. I declined and then offered to have my mechanic fit it if she dropped the car to me. She declined and wanted a replacement car while her's was with me and also wanted her legal fees paid. So I ignored her solicitors last two letters and now 18 months later I think it may be going to court. Funny thing is I think she will win if it does, even though in my eyes I have done everything I can to sort the situation.

The joys of the motor trade!

Slightly noobish view on this but if you completed a PDI which she signed, isn't it down to her to prove the fault was there at purchase? And if it's not, being a clutch, it's wear and tear?

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2 hours ago, EPV said:

Slightly noobish view on this but if you completed a PDI which she signed, isn't it down to her to prove the fault was there at purchase? And if it's not, being a clutch, it's wear and tear?

Thing is I  didn't supply her with a PDI. Also I'm sure she has text message correspondence saved on her phone relating to the issue within the 3 month warranty period. So even though I have tried to sort it out I think a judge may find I didn't. She really has annoyed me as she will not cooperate.

I'm trying to see it from her point of view but still I think she is being unreasonable.

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48 minutes ago, Scooby who said:

Thing is I  didn't supply her with a PDI. Also I'm sure she has text message correspondence saved on her phone relating to the issue within the 3 month warranty period. So even though I have tried to sort it out I think a judge may find I didn't. She really has annoyed me as she will not cooperate.

I'm trying to see it from her point of view but still I think she is being unreasonable.

Certainly sounds like it to me. If I were in her shoes and a dealer sent me a clutch in the post and even offered to have it fitted if I took it there I'd be in the car with the part in the back taking the dealer up on his offer. To expect it to be done at the local stealers is 100% unreasonable.

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1 minute ago, tradex said:

A PDI is not a get out of jail free card. We keep saying this but a layman cant sign away their rights via a PDI. 

 

I feel for you here, reminds me of our petrol in a diesel tosspot we had couple of years ago. Best of luck. 

Understand that but do the regs that we all abide by not state that for a seller to be liable for a refund, the fault has to be proven at sale and beyond that, the dealer has the right to remedy? Which is what Scooby tried? 

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In most cases if faced with repeated client moans i would probably just unwind the whole sale, refund in full and re-sell the car after having it checked over again

dealing in small claim courts and solicitors is not something i have any desire to encounter so would always try and do the above asap and move on with a quiet life as possible!!

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43 minutes ago, tradex said:

A PDI is not a get out of jail free card. We keep saying this but a layman cant sign away their rights via a PDI. 

 

I feel for you here, reminds me of our petrol in a diesel tosspot we had couple of years ago. Best of luck. 

A, independent MOT and PDI shows you have done over and above due diligence. We shouldn't be scared in saying no to wear and tear issues, the CRA is designed to protect us equally, wear n tear is specifically not covered.... I say it to every one of my buyers :)

Mr customer, I appreciate your purchase but taking ownership for expected repairs or maintenance are your responsibility.

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4 hours ago, Scooby who said:

Sold a 2010 Avensis 2.0 D4D with 70k miles on the 17 August 2016 with a 3 month warranty, Customer complained after a month that flywheel or clutch were acting up. I was shocked as car was a real gem and drove impeccably. I asked her to take it to HER mechanic as she is 2 hours away. He drove it and reported he couldn't find anything wrong at all and said it must be in her imagination. He drove it again 2 months later, same story.

Next thing I start receiving correspondence from her solicitor, so I send the countries top motor engineer round to investigate. He couldn't find anything wrong either apart from a tiny whine from the release bearing which he said was normal wear and tear and not relevant. Sent his report to her solicitor and offered (as a good will gesture) to supply a 3 piece clutch to her to have fitted at her expense.

That was in October 2017 14 months after purchase. She declined and wanted me to pay to have clutch supplied and fitted by her local Toyota dealer. I declined and then offered to have my mechanic fit it if she dropped the car to me. She declined and wanted a replacement car while her's was with me and also wanted her legal fees paid. So I ignored her solicitors last two letters and now 18 months later I think it may be going to court. Funny thing is I think she will win if it does, even though in my eyes I have done everything I can to sort the situation.

The joys of the motor trade!

she will not win

she is being wholly and totally unreasonable.

you DO NOT have to give her your pdi, i have successfully proven this in court, the claimant said they had no sight of any pdi, other than the one i produced in evidence, inferring that one didnt exsist ! in court the claimant and the judge were reminded that the pdi is for MY satisfaction that the vehicle is correctly examined and fit for sale, and correctly kept for any future reference, the customer has no need to see sight of this document, they were plainly told at time of sale "a full pdi has been carried out " .

being unreasonable and uncooperative is the first thing to put in your defence, and ask for any claim to be struck out not only this but that a clutch is a wear and tear item, especially after so long as its obvious shes still using the car and its not stopped her from using it at all.

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19 minutes ago, Scooby who said:

Thing is I  didn't supply her with a PDI. Also I'm sure she has text message correspondence saved on her phone relating to the issue within the 3 month warranty period. So even though I have tried to sort it out I think a judge may find I didn't. She really has annoyed me as she will not cooperate.

I'm trying to see it from her point of view but still I think she is being unreasonable.

She is being totally unreasonable. Starnd your ground :)

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I’d stand my ground too. Mind you, it all depends on the judge on the day but you’ve no other sensible option (unless you count bending over backward for the punter as an option). Tbh I think you’ve already offered too much, you’ve offered her a damn sight more than she’d get from me.

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10 hours ago, have a word with the wife said:

she will not win

she is being wholly and totally unreasonable.

you DO NOT have to give her your pdi, i have successfully proven this in court, the claimant said they had no sight of any pdi, other than the one i produced in evidence, inferring that one didnt exsist ! in court the claimant and the judge were reminded that the pdi is for MY satisfaction that the vehicle is correctly examined and fit for sale, and correctly kept for any future reference, the customer has no need to see sight of this document, they were plainly told at time of sale "a full pdi has been carried out " .

being unreasonable and uncooperative is the first thing to put in your defence, and ask for any claim to be struck out not only this but that a clutch is a wear and tear item, especially after so long as its obvious shes still using the car and its not stopped her from using it at all.

Good point. I also wonder how many miles theyve covered in this car since you sold to them...

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A Clutch is not just fair wear and tear, but something that can be damaged easily by a customer. But I would think in your favour is her mechanic saying no problem, and this being 14 months down the line. It shouldnt even be going to a court, her solicitor should know that by rights its going nowhere. If anything, I think that you may have been too generous by offering to supply and fit the clutch yourself, she is now a dog with a bone who thinks she is going to get her own way. There's always one of these customers lurking somewhere, I find it odd that she has been claiming a clutch fault for 18 months and yet she is still driving the car? Surely if it was faulty within the first few weeks the car wouldnt still be moving?

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