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Boydy1985

Reasonable Usage Charge??

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Hi Guys,

 

I have a customer who i believe is going to contact me looking a refund on a Jeep that broke the Oil pump tensioner wreaking the engine. Quick question if he asks for a refund under the CRA what would be a reasonable charge to ask him. Im hoping he will let me fix it but hasn't been playing ball so far. He has done 2400 Miles on a 92k Range Rover Sport at £9300?

 

Many Thanks

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Well there’s a question.... Did you freshly MOT and PDI ? How long since purchase ? Don’t dangle a carrot give us the full details and facts. 

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Got a similar scenario...... 2007 56 mini cooper s, 87k, just over 3 months in and the engine has blown, conrod straight through the block. Cant adam and eve it. Rotten luck. 

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33 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Well there’s a question.... Did you freshly MOT and PDI ? How long since purchase ? Don’t dangle a carrot give us the full details and facts. 

Checkout www.cmcarsni.co.uk lad

Screen Shot 2018-05-09 at 20.20.22.png

All Cars PDI'S Arfur, I don't think it matters who is or isn't at fault if a customer wishes to exercise their right to a refund a trader has the right to ask for an allowance under the CRA?

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there doesn't seem to be any precedent, try for as much as possible and work back?

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With your situation on the Range Rover. 

Doesn't the CRA require the fault to have been present AT THE TIME OF SUPPLY for it to apply?

I.E, the engine wasn't blown at the time of supply, therefore you aren't obligated to offer anything? Its simply bad look for which you aren't required to have a crystal ball for?

 

Not saying you would necessarily run a business that way and say sorry jog on. But surely a blown engine is a very Clear as day. It was obviously not like that at the time of supply, but as a good will gesture, as we understand this is bad luck we'll be happy to X, or Y.

 

We as traders have no control over design flaws of a vehicle, how well it was serviced and looked after by the previous owner, nor how well the new owner looks after and drives it. All we can do is make sure its working at the time of supply. And if it is, that is all we are required to do. We might offer third party warranties etc, but nevertheless, my understanding of the CRA is that we are not required to provide cover for bad luck.

Otherwise, the customer in theory has the right to give a car death if that is there driving style, many older cars wouldn't stand for it, yet they still have the right to ask for a CRA refund or repair?

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23 minutes ago, FHP11 said:

With your situation on the Range Rover. 

Doesn't the CRA require the fault to have been present AT THE TIME OF SUPPLY for it to apply?

I.E, the engine wasn't blown at the time of supply, therefore you aren't obligated to offer anything? Its simply bad look for which you aren't required to have a crystal ball for?

 

Not saying you would necessarily run a business that way and say sorry jog on. But surely a blown engine is a very Clear as day. It was obviously not like that at the time of supply, but as a good will gesture, as we understand this is bad luck we'll be happy to X, or Y.

 

We as traders have no control over design flaws of a vehicle, how well it was serviced and looked after by the previous owner, nor how well the new owner looks after and drives it. All we can do is make sure its working at the time of supply. And if it is, that is all we are required to do. We might offer third party warranties etc, but nevertheless, my understanding of the CRA is that we are not required to provide cover for bad luck.

Otherwise, the customer in theory has the right to give a car death if that is there driving style, many older cars wouldn't stand for it, yet they still have the right to ask for a CRA refund or repair?

You’re half right but it’s not that simple. Can you prove the fault was not present at the point of sale? If so, the consumer can’t ask for a refund BUT you have to provide a repair as it’s unreasonable to sell a £9k car and for it to go pop in 3 months. You can’t just shrug your shoulders and say “well that’s just bad luck” i’m   afraid. Up to the 6 month period you are liable for at least a repair, excluding wear and tear 

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2 hours ago, EPV said:

You’re half right but it’s not that simple. Can you prove the fault was not present at the point of sale? If so, the consumer can’t ask for a refund BUT you have to provide a repair as it’s unreasonable to sell a £9k car and for it to go pop in 3 months. You can’t just shrug your shoulders and say “well that’s just bad luck” i’m   afraid. Up to the 6 month period you are liable for at least a repair, excluding wear and tear 

There’s more to the CRA than just “as described” which is what’s been mentioned in terms of being free from fault at point of purchase, having a pdi and mot.

I would think that In this case, another part of CRA - satisfactory quality, is the major factor, I’d be asking myself, is it reasonable to expect a vehicle of this age, price and mileage to last longer than 3 months? This is where you’d have to second guess what a judge would say if it god forbid went that far, But over an above this, what do you thinks fair, As it’s your business’s and reputation you need to think about when forming a reply/resolution to your customer.

Just my 2p and happy to be put straight on any or all of my comments, I’m still getting to grips with CRA ins and outs, be great to hear what others think or would do.

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1 hour ago, justlooking said:

There’s more to the CRA than just “as described” which is what’s been mentioned in terms of being free from fault at point of purchase, having a pdi and mot.

I would think that In this case, another part of CRA - satisfactory quality, is the major factor, I’d be asking myself, is it reasonable to expect a vehicle of this age, price and mileage to last longer than 3 months? This is where you’d have to second guess what a judge would say if it god forbid went that far, But over an above this, what do you thinks fair, As it’s your business’s and reputation you need to think about when forming a reply/resolution to your customer.

Just my 2p and happy to be put straight on any or all of my comments, I’m still getting to grips with CRA ins and outs, be great to hear what others think or would do.

Your 2p is the same as my 2p! 

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7 hours ago, Boydy1985 said:

What facts would you like added Arfur?

How long has he had the car ? If it’s over a month he cannot reject unless he can prove the fault was there at the point of sale.

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41 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

How long has he had the car ? If it’s over a month he cannot reject unless he can prove the fault was there at the point of sale.

More specifically, if the OP can prove it wasn’t. 

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4 minutes ago, EPV said:

More specifically, if the OP can prove it wasn’t. 

Exactly, until we know the facts it’s pointless hazarding a guess. If it’s within 30 days, over 30 days.... blah blah blah 

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36 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Exactly, until we know the facts it’s pointless hazarding a guess. If it’s within 30 days, over 30 days.... blah blah blah 

In his other thread he said 2 months.

Do oil pump tensioners have a recommended service interval? Or are they just a part that after near 10 years gives way? If an oil pump tensioner is failing how long does it take from failure to complete engine destruction (less that 2,400 Miles I imagine)? Are there any signs that could have been ignored by the punter - noises, warnings etc? Prior to the parts failure did the car demonstrate any behaviour that was unusual?

I would get some advice from a LR Tech on some of the above and then think about your next step. 

Edited by Mojo121

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14 hours ago, Dealer said:

Got a similar scenario...... 2007 56 mini cooper s, 87k, just over 3 months in and the engine has blown, conrod straight through the block. Cant adam and eve it. Rotten luck. 

These drink oil at an alarming rate, i'd be 99.9% sure the customer didn't check the oil in the 3 months of driving  and that's why it let go. I know that doesn't help you but good to know for the next one. 

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Thanks for the advice guys yes he had the jeep for around 10 weeks, The problem is he was back within a day because his alternator wasn't charging so he is trying to say that their were faults in the Jeep at time of sale etc.

He has agreed to let me fix it after i offered him a refund minus £900 for his driving but i wish he would have taken it as in my experience once a customer feels he's bought a 'Bad Jeep" its a long 6 months!! Lol

Edited by Boydy1985

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Me too.   I'm fed up of these occasional idiots trying it on thinking they can return a car at the drop of a hat-no matter how many weeks/months have gone by.  Especially when you've said you'll fix it!

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On 10/05/2018 at 11:24 PM, Boydy1985 said:

Thanks for the advice guys yes he had the jeep for around 10 weeks, The problem is he was back within a day because his alternator wasn't charging so he is trying to say that their were faults in the Jeep at time of sale etc.

He has agreed to let me fix it after i offered him a refund minus £900 for his driving but i wish he would have taken it as in my experience once a customer feels he's bought a 'Bad Jeep" its a long 6 months!! Lol

We all get these customers, it’s always a business decision as to whether you stand your ground or bend over. I’m interested in how you arrived at 37.5ppm ? 

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On 10/05/2018 at 7:21 AM, Mojo121 said:

In his other thread he said 2 months.

Do oil pump tensioners have a recommended service interval? Or are they just a part that after near 10 years gives way? If an oil pump tensioner is failing how long does it take from failure to complete engine destruction (less that 2,400 Miles I imagine)? Are there any signs that could have been ignored by the punter - noises, warnings etc? Prior to the parts failure did the car demonstrate any behaviour that was unusual?

I would get some advice from a LR Tech on some of the above and then think about your next step. 

The oil pump tensioner casing snaps on the early 2.7s. It's a ticking time bomb and not a servicable item. Casing snaps engine blows. Land rover shunned the fact it was a design flaw but then put a strenghthened casing from 2009 onwards<_<

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