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Selfy trader

Refunding a customer

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Right gentleman, I feel like I’ve been to car dealer school over night..well...how to deal with car sales issues school anyway, I will let you know of the outcome in the  coming days, what a brilliant network of knowledge this is!

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37 minutes ago, EPV said:

I think it’s a classic sign of someone who has bought a cheap old car (well his daughter has) and he thinks he’s entitled to certain things he is not entitled to. He’s not as clever as he thinks because by refusing to hand over the mileage and refusing a repair he’s painting himself as an unreasonable person and trying to bully the OP into his unlawful demands. 

Dont give this character any credit, he’s trying to be a hard man in front of his daughter and actually tripping himself up. 

LIKE

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once you get the lba you want to be filling all the paperwork in soonest and asking the court for arbitration,if the plaintiff refuses then also ask for an independent inspection of the car to ascertain the reason for rejection,this can cost up to £300 because the court might decide who can inspect if indeed they allow it

you can ask the court to have the trial near your home if other party is far away,again depending on backlog this may not happen

it can be 6 months plus before you get to court

the plaintiff might make a call to trading standards to complain so be ready and have all your amunition at hand

trading standards might be a good call anyway once the lba comes so as to ask for their advice

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1 minute ago, boring dave said:

once you get the lba you want to be filling all the paperwork in soonest and asking the court for arbitration,if the plaintiff refuses then also ask for an independent inspection of the car to ascertain the reason for rejection,this can cost up to £300 because the court might decide who can inspect if indeed they allow it

you can ask the court to have the trial near your home if other party is far away,again depending on backlog this may not happen

it can be 6 months plus before you get to court

the plaintiff might make a call to trading standards to complain so be ready and have all your amunition at hand

trading standards might be a good call anyway once the lba comes so as to ask for their advice

Love it, first hand experience.

I'm gonna take a guess that once the billy is in receipt of the OP's letter, he'll take advice, realise the OP is right and either take the offer of refund or bring it back for a repair/diagnosis.

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Just now, EPV said:

Love it, first hand experience.

I'm gonna take a guess that once the billy is in receipt of the OP's letter, he'll take advice, realise the OP is right and either take the offer of refund or bring it back for a repair/diagnosis.

he says he has no spare cash so this could be an issue

of course sometimes going to court is a matter of principles

principles have caused me a lot of hassle over the years but as michael caine said 'if you aint got peace of mind,what have you got' so there you are

only thing is as i said earler the plaintiff might start adding on taxi fares storage road tax unused insurance stress loss of time at work etc etc etc

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1 minute ago, boring dave said:

he says he has no spare cash so this could be an issue

of course sometimes going to court is a matter of principles

principles have caused me a lot of hassle over the years but as michael caine said 'if you aint got peace of mind,what have you got' so there you are

only thing is as i said earler the plaintiff might start adding on taxi fares storage road tax unused insurance stress loss of time at work etc etc etc

I'm willing to bet that if the billy about turns and says to the OP "ok, give me £2300 less £1500 for usage" then OP will find that £800 from somewhere...

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7 minutes ago, EPV said:

I'm willing to bet that if the billy about turns and says to the OP "ok, give me £2300 less £1500 for usage" then OP will find that £800 from somewhere...

the billy might be an early retired wonker sat at home in his shorts and beans covered teashirt with plenty of time on his hands

just sayin.............

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Just now, boring dave said:

the billy might be an early retired wonker sat at home in his shorts and beans covered teashirt with plenty of time on his hands

just sayin.............

Yep, he does seem to have an air of someone who wants to take on the nasty car dealer and fly to his daughters rescue. 

I feel sorry for his daughter, she's been unlucky and bought a pain in the arse car. But that's life isn't it, shit happens, you have to deal with it. Doesn't make you above the law and this fella is making himself look very unreasonable. Beans or no beans.

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The courts expect you both claimant and defendant to cooperate with each other, if not, this is seen as wasting the courts time and must be in your defence [mileage, looking at car, etc].

[practice direction 27 part4=

4 The parties are encouraged to contact each other with a view to trying to settle the case or narrow the issues. ]

To give a refund, whether reduced or not for fair usage on a "fault" that you have been given no chance of looking at is just crazy [ not you HIM!] .

The customer needs telling in no uncertain terms a engine fault light appearing can in no way be assumed it was a fault that present before, just missing a gear and redlining a engine or even missed gear and labouring a engine could produce a simple fault light, remind the customer that the fault light covers thousands of codes.

 

as been mentioned, you say daughter bought car, is that name on your receipt ? is that who the car was registered to ? are you 99% sure that this " other person" i assume dad, did not pay for the car ? if so, then he cannot represent another party at court, quite simple, you cannot claim for another person, if you do get this far, [and do not mention this to "dad"? at the minute] and a letter arrives from court and its got "his" name on, then apply to have the case struck out as you have had no dealings money wise with this person and is not the correct claimant that your paperwork prooves. the daughter would then have to make a fresh claim [£s] and the only other way to change it is with a judges permission [£s] .

 

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Send him a letter Keep it simple. Something like

Dear Mr......

Following our conversation on 24/09/2018 regarding your daughters car.

As you are aware we extended our 3 month warranty to 6 months at your request as a gesture of goodwill so we are more than happy to look at the car for you. However you are refusing to allow either ourselves or the repairer you requested we use previously to examine the vehicle. We will of course stand by our warranty should you change your mind. Although please note we cannot be held responsible for any damage caused by continued use of the vehicle.

As for the matter of a refund. We are more then happy to meet our responsibilities under the CRA 2015.

Please let me know which option you would prefer.

Regards ......

 

Of course we know what “our rights under CRA2015 “ mean

 

 

Edited by David Ayers
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Eh? You’ve sold a car to a woman & are now dealing with a man. Either they’ve had a quick sex change OR you’re pissing away your time dealing with someone who has absolutely nothing to do with this car deal.

This chancer would get no more than a minute of my time, you might as well be dealing with me about the VW Polio as him because we both have the same involvement in this deal.

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41 minutes ago, BHM said:

Eh? You’ve sold a car to a woman & are now dealing with a man. Either they’ve had a quick sex change OR you’re pissing away your time dealing with someone who has absolutely nothing to do with this car deal.

This chancer would get no more than a minute of my time, you might as well be dealing with me about the VW Polio as him because we both have the same involvement in this deal.

Not quite to be fair dad is trying to look after is daughter, can't blame him for that.

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Dear customer, 

I was surprised to be contacted by you regarding the new issue on the VW Polo after we rectified everything your specialist previously noted and at great cost to us which exceeded the limit of our warranty cover.

 

This new issue was clearly not present at the point of sale (otherwise the specialist would've picked it up when he last worked on the vehicle) so may I suggest you get in touch directly with them as issues not present at the point of sale and not covered by extended warranty fall outside the realm of our responsibilities as a supplier of used vehicles. However, I can empathise with your situation and I do suggest you return the car to your specialist and we can go from there, I extended your warranty out of a gesture of goodwill and be sure I will stand by that once VASS diagnose the issue as per your previous request.

 

An engine management light can come on for many reasons, even something as trivial as changing into the wrong gear at the wrong engine revolutions on an incline, nothing is to say this is the same fault at this time, if that is the case I’m more than happy to resolve this in a fair manner to please both parties involved, until diagnosed we cannot take your query further. I do feel I have done my upmost in allowing you to use your own preferred garage due to convenience and your own peace of mind, and have never queried any of my invoices from your chosen specialist, my aim was simply to rectify your issue as quickly as possible, I have not refused to support you before and this is no different, however I will not be bullied into an unfair position after you’ve requested a full refund after nearly 5 months of usage

May I take this opportunity to thank you once again for your purchase and for your business. 

Best wishes. 

 

Ready to send this over, any pointers?

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2 minutes ago, tradex said:

Well done.B), great attempt for a first time.

Critique:- Maybe a tad too personal, and any solicitor will tell you keep anything in writing as short as poss'......less is more, slash it down to its bare bones.

I find it's good to do these things in the morning, spend a few hours valeting, come in for a tea and then re-read....having raging dyslexia means I really have to do this anyway and it's surprising what bumpf you can cut out after a few hours away from the screen,

....remember just the bare minimum to convey the message, anything else could trip you up.

What should I remove? I was trying to be thorough 

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Needs more clipart and Comic Sans MS font.

Nik MK already posted a response for you - Literally copy and paste job don't overthink it. 

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Personally I wouldn’t mention a warranty. They are of no consequence in this situation and I think you just need to be factual. 

 

Dear xxx,

BY POST AND EMAIL ONLY 

RE: VW Polo registration xxxxx

Further to our most recent telecom, i’m afraid I will not be providing a full refund as you requested. 

It is my right under the CRA 2015 to make an adjustment to any refund amount, owing to usage. As you have refused to provide me with the mileage, I cannot make a fixed price offer of a refund but my offer will be in line with HMRC’s guidelines for expense claims of 45p per mile. As an example, if you have covered 3,000 miles the reduction would be £1,260. The mileage at the point of sale was 67,xxx. 

If this offer isn’t acceptable to you, I would be happy to receive the car back from you to diagnose what the cause of the EML is, which could be something very simple. EML’s cover thousands of codes and without a proper diagnoses it’s impossible for me to offer a resolution. Please note however that if the EML is indicating a fault that is a result of wear and tear, as this is excluded from the CRA 2015 I would not be legally obliged to rectify this. With that said, given your unfortunate run of luck with this vehicle, I would be open minded enough to help with the costs of the repair to some degree or another. As mentioned though I cannot do any of this without the car back in my possession for diagnoses. 

I am here to help if you will allow me and I am willing to stand by my obligations under the law and beyond if needs be, in order to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion for you and your daughter. 

Regards,

selfy 

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It's a tricky one. Quite possible that the car was sold with the EML fault codes cleared for at the point of trade purchase, hence fault was present at point of sale?

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2 minutes ago, twerp said:

It's a tricky one. Quite possible that the car was sold with the EML fault codes cleared for at the point of trade purchase, hence fault was present at point of sale?

Yeah possibly. The EML isn’t a fault though. It’s possibly indicative of a fault. In other words, there was a fault diagnosed (shagged ECU) which was replaced. Fault fixed. 

2 months later the EML is on again. At this stage nobody knows if it’s a proper fault or a VW feeling bored and having a tantrum. 

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16 minutes ago, twerp said:

It's a tricky one. Quite possible that the car was sold with the EML fault codes cleared for at the point of trade purchase, hence fault was present at point of sale?

We hadn’t cleared any fault codes regarding an EML before sale, none what so ever, just re-read this, I purchased the car some 80 miles away, it was driven home absolutely fine and to double check I always make sure they are driven around before sale

Edited by Selfy trader

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6 minutes ago, tradex said:

Why? They wouldn't anything more that the OP can't do for himself?

If that was the case mate there would be no solicitors employed in any area of law. 

Taking proper legal advice is surely sensible when facing the threat of legal action? Luckily the OP can use the resources of this forum initially but even that is not “doing it for himself?”

10 minutes ago, tradex said:

I keep reading this about CRA-2105 specifically stating "wear and tear"...I have a copy of CRA-2105 on the office wall and I can't see this term, I'd like to, but I can't....but then I only have sections 9 to 18, maybe it's mentioned elsewhere, and my eyes aren't that great?

Now, I know this is as 'taken' with regards consumer law, but always nice to quote section bla, sub-section tickerty boo.

I’ve looked for that myself mate actually and can’t find specific wording but as you say it’s taken as read. I don’t think at this stage a response to the billy needs to read like a solicitors letter. 

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1 minute ago, tradex said:

We are talking consumer law, small claims court 'he says, I says', not Old Bailey stuff with wigs 'n gowns and finite legal procedures.

Of course taking advice is always useful, paying for advice can be useful too if the information and advice is correct and timely.....maybe not best to discuss on an open forum of our experiences with a well known Motor Trade legal assistance company....I'll leave it at that except to say, bung me a grand (or less if smaller) a year and I'll tell you what you want to hear too.;)

You can chat with a proper solicitor for far less than an hours labour at your nearest Audi dealer if needs be. B)

I know mate I was just saying that everyone needs some sort of advice, when faced with the threat of legal action. Old Bailey or Judges chambers and his cat. 

Lawgistics offer a good service imo, a quick phone call and you have the correct advice on the other end of the phone. Doesn’t always have to be about court either, just reassurances you’re doing the right thing. 

You’ve been in the game long enough to not need that I expect, power to you. But most of us newbies need the support. 

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1 hour ago, Row said:

Not quite to be fair dad is trying to look after is daughter, can't blame him for that.

You can’t BUT that’s not the issue. HE has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the deal so in no way shape or form should you entertain him. End of.

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1 minute ago, BHM said:

You can’t BUT that’s not the issue. HE has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the deal so in no way shape or form should you entertain him. End of.

I had a similar issue 2 years back. Went to court, the Dad said he would be speaking on daughters behalf. She just sat there on her phone and didnt say a word.

The judge had no problem with it - didnt even mention it in fact!

 

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